Courtesy of +Brand Gamblin - I feel like I wind up making this statement/argument…

40 Responses to “Courtesy of +Brand Gamblin - I feel like I wind up making this statement/argument…”

  1. Paul Duggan January 6, 2014 at 10:31 pm #

    But it helps.

  2. Gregory Lynn January 6, 2014 at 11:27 pm #

    Yeah, see, 99% of the time I'm with Mr. Wheaton on the whole don't be a dick thing, but pointing out how horrifically stupid some of these beliefs are helps prevent other people from adopting them, and there's more or less no way to say that a belief is stupid without having someone who believes that get insulted, no matter how politely you phrase it.

  3. Jim Hanson January 6, 2014 at 11:40 pm #

    I'm not easily insulted, and a majority of the things being slammed aren't my beliefs, but I've seen some damn insulting, infuriating, and otherwise disgusting things posted in the name of atheism.

  4. Paul Duggan January 6, 2014 at 11:51 pm #

    And you've never seen some damn insulting, infuriating and otherwise disgusting things posted in the name of theism?

  5. Jim Hanson January 6, 2014 at 11:57 pm #

    Yes, but when I see that it's usually by idiot sheeple who I don't value the opinion of, and who probably don't know any better and are just puppeting dogma that they've been spoonfed through their entire lives.  

    Long story short – I expect better of atheists, because they're supposed to be smart and shit.

  6. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 12:02 am #

    People are people.  You've just got to get used to the fact.

    And that there was pretty condescending to theists…

  7. Jim Hanson January 7, 2014 at 12:06 am #

    Not all of them.  Just the crème de la crème.  Your "Jerry Falwell" wannabes.

    When I hear an atheist slam on a theist, it feels – to me – like hearing a friend be casually racist and expecting you to be cool with it.

  8. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 12:11 am #

    +Jim Hanson I get what you're saying.  It's like what some Theists must think when they hear the "Jerry Falwell" wannabes.  Or when a politician from "your side" does something stupid.

    But even the good Theists can be condescending asses to Atheists.  Like Oprah's pushing an atheist's statement of experiencing awe and wonder at nature meaning that they are really a theist.

  9. Andreas Habicher January 7, 2014 at 12:43 am #

    I read someone recently stating that all priests should be hunted down, and all religious people locked up in mental institutions until they denounce their faith.

    I went offline and went to church, just because.

  10. Leonard Suskin January 7, 2014 at 8:14 am #

    Yeah, I'm an atheist but the spaghetti monster game and its variations get really old really quickly. 

    We can be atheist but still grown-up about it.

  11. Rich Garner January 7, 2014 at 8:26 am #

    I'll prevent the flip side:
    I'm a Christian and I want to apologize if I ever made anyone feel I was judging them or their life/belief choices. Our doctrine says very clearly to love others and not judge and I find it appalling that some who claim to worship come out with the most ridiculous statement's I've ever heard.
    So, please don't think we are all like that. In fact, I'm good friends with some atheists and they happen to be very cool people.

  12. Christopher Butler January 7, 2014 at 9:17 am #

    In the final analysis, there is no shortage of self-imposed groupthink humans can use to justify being a total ass to others. Self-righteousness nearly always breeds assholery.

    I'm not remotely religious, but 9 times out of 10, on G+, I find the throbbing atheist collective boner childish in the extreme.

    …and this is where many G+ atheists would usually rise from their chair in an air-clawing rage to say "but we ARE so very, very right! We have a right, nay, a responsibility to be assholes!" :-/

  13. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 11:46 am #

    +Paul Duggan I'm sorry, but it's not accurate to call politicians from "our side," that side being all theists, the ones likely to do something stupid, simply because they believe in God. The politicians I support generally are theists, just because most politicians aren't atheists, and you rarely if ever hear them discuss their faith, and if they do use it as motivation for their decision making, the decisions they make are fair and not designed to oppress others. For example, my beliefs tell me it's not my place to control other people's beliefs, that that's between them and God. My beliefs give me individual conscience, independent of most obligatory church dogma, and an obligation to stand by them.

    Painting an entire group if people with a broad brush based on the actions of a few is how all bigotry starts.

  14. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 11:48 am #

    +Christopher Butler I couldn't agree more. I frequently say more or less the same.

  15. Jim Hanson January 7, 2014 at 11:49 am #

    I'd also like to say how happy I am that we're finally having this discussion.

  16. Andreas Habicher January 7, 2014 at 11:51 am #

    +Nikki Gurwood Most everyone has a politician who is from the party he or she voted for.
    What's more, I BET that 99% of politicians worldwide believe in only one thing in this universe and outside of it: their own Ego.

    That's my bigotry. I think politicos are liars and crooks, regardless of their affiliation.

    (Edit: their STATED affiliation)

  17. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 11:56 am #

    See, I also consider politicians to be a group you can't paint with a broad brush.

  18. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 1:57 pm #

    +Nikki Gurwood "Your side" not "our side".

  19. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 2:25 pm #

    It's…a shift in perspectives based on who's talking. It's a part of speech thing.

  20. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 2:27 pm #

    +Jim Hanson Yes…but less happy then you would be if we did not have to have this discussion.

  21. Jim Hanson January 7, 2014 at 2:35 pm #

    True. And I think it's a big breakthrough for me realizing that the reason that hating on theists bothers me so much is it feels just like casual racism. There's a lot of that where I live, people dropping every racial and ethnic slur they can think of, and just assuming that I'm the same as them and I am OK with it.

  22. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 2:35 pm #

    +Nikki Gurwood No, it's an important difference.  Whatever "side" you're on, it's "your side".

    "Our side" says that you and me vote the same way.

  23. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 3:06 pm #

    Paul, I think you ought to let go of the minutia that you're fixating on, because it's really all about how you read it, and see the larger points that I was making to you.

    if it comforts you at all, based on our limited interaction, I have no impression the star that you and I are on the same side of anything. the kinds of things that you've started this conversation saying aren't exactly bridge builders.

  24. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 3:12 pm #

    +Nikki Gurwood Ah, so you deliberately misunderstand what I was trying to say and now push it back onto me?

    It's attitudes like that that cause meaningless hate between people.

    Keep up the good work.

  25. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 4:43 pm #

    +Paul Duggan Honestly, I don't know whether to scream or laugh at this point.

  26. Leonard Suskin January 7, 2014 at 4:49 pm #

    I think the quotes that Nikki put around the words "our side" mss it clear that she doesn't think that it's the same for all of us.

    In either event, what she actually meant should be clear by now. Purely semantic arguments for there own sake are somewhat tiresome.

  27. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 4:50 pm #

    Amen, and thank you, Leonard.

  28. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 4:51 pm #

    +Nikki Gurwood Do whatever you want.  I mean one thing, you want me to mean something else, even telling me I was wrong to believe what I mean was what I mean.  I'm beginning to that you spend a lot of time not knowing whether to scream or laugh.  Do what you want.  I know what I mean, and as much as you think you can you cannot tell me otherwise.

  29. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 4:52 pm #

    +Leonard Suskin Remember, of course, that's after I put quotes around "your side".

  30. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 4:56 pm #

    +Paul Duggan You said something, and I answered you in a way that should have been very clear with regard to the comment of yours to which it applied.

    If it wasn't, it wasn't, but it is one thing to ask for clarification, it is another entirely to come out fighting like you are entirely sure you are entirely correct.  I have come to know well when I am speaking to a brick wall, and I don't bother with people who are looking for some misdirected sense of superiority.

    You are mistaken in your position on this, in either approach or content, possibly both.  I choose laughter.  Now enough of this, it's going nowhere positive, and I don't take my time and energy on things and people that are incessantly negative and can have no positive outcome.

  31. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 5:07 pm #

    "it is one thing to ask for clarification, it is another entirely to come out fighting"

    Exactly my point.  If you didn't understand, ask instead of attacking.

  32. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 5:11 pm #

    I did understand, and I spoke to that point.  I am not under the impression that I misunderstood you, this entire conversation has been about you fixating on small points of usage that YOU misunderstood.  

    I think I'm in your blind spot.  Please go back, look it over, see if it looks/sounds/translates any differently to you, and if you can come to me with either an apology and a new framework for understanding what I said, or a respectful question or two, we can talk.  Other than that, can we please let this go?  Thank you.

  33. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 5:18 pm #

    +Nikki Gurwood "Or when a politician from "your side" does something stupid."

    "Your side".  Atheist liberal.  Atheist conservative.  Theist liberal.  Theist conservative.  Libertarian.  Independent.  Green. Refuses to vote.  Whatever a person's side it.

    Not "our side".  Not any particular side that you may have or I may have.  I don't know how many times I have to explain this.  And I'm not going to explain it again.  I don't have to try to understand your point because it is irrelevant to what I was saying.

  34. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 5:22 pm #

    Paul, let me approach this in the following way.  I am posting something quoting you.  You are the speaker.

    "I get what you're saying.  It's like what some Theists must think when they hear the "Jerry Falwell" wannabes.  Or when a politician from "your side" does something stupid."

    You placed "your side" in quotes.  You were speaking to Jim.  I will backtrack and ask you to tell me to whom the phrase "your side" refers in that comment.

  35. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 5:25 pm #

    "Your side" refers to any reader.

    If I was referring only to Jim I would not have used the scare quote (as I've already pointed out).

  36. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 5:31 pm #

    It was not my impression that you were referring only to Jim, that would be stupid (for you to have intended it for me to have interpreted it as such).  And it would not have merited a response.

    My impression was that "your side" referred not to any reader, but to any theist reader, and that the implication was that you were saying that some theists (the more open minded kind, presumably) probably have that previously mentioned reaction when they hear some Jerry Falwell wannabe or some stupid politician who is a theist.

    From this, I came to the conclusion that this was knocking on the door of the familiar accusation of atheists that theists are bad in part because they legislate from the beliefs and create laws that affect people with whom they disagree.  I pointed out that one's faith does not lead every theist to either interpret their faith the same way, or legislate the same way.  I am pro-choice, for example, because of my faith, not in spite of it, and that was the point I was making.

  37. Paul Duggan January 7, 2014 at 7:09 pm #

    That's nice.

  38. Nikki Gurwood January 7, 2014 at 8:43 pm #

    Yeah, well…y'know.

  39. Gareth Wilson January 8, 2014 at 7:34 am #

    I find as a self learned atheist. The attitude mentioned here which I so gracefully hide in everyday life is unearthed by the blatant condescending rantings of my wife's orthodox Italian (pushy) family. I get it. You were raised this way and fed this everyday. However it does not entitle you to try force it upon our 18 month old son. Nor does it make it ok to suggest we are bad parents for not following the path they expect. Believe what you want and keep it to yourself. Like the other 4000+ various other religions. I'll do the same and we'll call it a day.

  40. Nikki Gurwood January 8, 2014 at 9:20 am #

    +Gareth Wilson Just bear in mind, though not sure if this will help or hurt your cause, that they really are afraid the child will die not being connected to God, and go to Hell.

    It's out of love.

Leave a Reply